Self-Defense of Murder? Example or Anomaly?: The Vang story out of Wisconsin, in which six were killed, was sent to me by a good friend as an example why firearms for self-defense are a bad idea - particularly Concealed Carry laws (CCW). It begins with Chris just sending me a copy of the story with the subject line: Locke and Guns. I knew what he meant, so this was my reply and the thread that followed:

Edward: That's why I never couch my gun advocacy in hunter's rights. This isn't an example of concealed carry. Hunters also don't have to pass any kind of firearms proficiency or special background check as CCW carriers do. They just pay for a hunter's license. 2 totally separate issues.

Chris: Ok, I'll concede that, but it's still a glaring example of stupid gun owners. How many more would be have if anyone could get a gun?

Edward: Anyone shouldn't be able to have a gun in public. Only people who pass a background check, have no criminal records or mental health issues, take and pass a firearms class that also teaches the law of self-defense - when it is justified and when it isn't.

Too bad someone didn't take this jerk out and save a few innocents. The story says there was only one gun among the victims. Perhaps if they'd had some way to defend themselves, they wouldn't have been slaughtered so defenselessly.

This guy was obviously a fucking asshole and even with gun control laws, he was able to do this. One thing even the most ardent gun control advocates know is that they'll never be able to ban hunting rifles. What is amazing is how many people go hunting every year and are totally responsible. We only hear about this rare incident - it is actually the first story of it's kind I've heard in my entire life. I've heard of hunting accidents, but never this. All those drunks with guns and this is the first time I've heard of a murder like this. That says a lot to those who presume people will just turn to murderers when they have a gun in their hands. They are wrong.

Chris: Defend themselves? They're all hunters and they all have guns, probably multiple guns. That didn't help them at all, they got riddled with bullets. And the semi-automatic hunting rifle didn't help matters. Why the hell are hunters allowed to carry semi-automatics? As if having a gun in the first place somehow makes hunting a challenge. Cowards.

It's not valid to call this massacre a failure of gun control laws. There are no laws in existence that could have stopped this bloodbath.

I agree, it is amazing that there are not a lot more of these kind of crazy hunting murders. Hunters are a different breed from the urban carry and conceal handgun owner.

To be fair, I very rarely hear about legal handgun owners using guns as they're intended, e.g. protection of self, family, and home. Your subsequent email is the first I've read in years. It just doesn't support the cc argument.

Edward: I'm still just reading your first paragraph, but the story said there was only one gun among all the victims. Most were unarmed. Ok.. Now I'll go read the rest of your note.

Chris: Which begs the question, where were they're guns?! The second group that got called in after the first two people got shot certainly had an opportunity to load a gun and bring it with them. It's crazy. What were they thinking? "My family is getting shot at, but I don't think I need my gun!"

If these experienced gun owners were not able to utilize their guns for protection, how can amateurs be expected to do any better? Where's the argument for self-protection?

Certainly the idea that guns *deter* crime is quashed here. Vang certainly must have realized he was dealing with hunters, who always have guns, yet he shot anyways. No fear. Worse, he lived to see another day because the gun owners failed to protect themselves.

Honestly, I don't see the argument for guns in this example.

Edward: Oh, I'm not looking at this case as anything having to do with the issue of firearms for self-defense. I'm finding it fascinating for its story value. From the latest reports, it sounds like the Anglos called their friends at the cabin before any shooting began.

If you recall, you started this thread using this story as a case study on firearms & self-defense. I made my case for the invalidity of that due to the anomalous nature of this case and the differences between obtaining a hunting license and the process of obtaining a CCW permit. I thought you agreed.

But not to leave an argument unanswered - One person's inability to utilize their options effectively is not the basis for denying those options to others. Even if 1000 people are slow to the draw, that is no reason to say I can't have a gun to protect my family, there is no logic in that. Because many people are incapable of forming cogent arguments certainly is no reason to ban free speech.

Vang told investigators he didn't realize he was on private property when he climbed the tree stand, according to the probable-cause statement released Tuesday. The county has thousands of acres of public hunting land, some of it "virtually around" the private property where the shooting occurred, Meier has said.

A hunter approached and told Vang he was on private property, and Vang started to leave as other hunters approached, the statement said. Vang said the hunters surrounded him and some called him racial slurs.

Vang said he started walking away but looked back to see the first hunter point his rifle at him and then fire a shot that hit the ground 30 to 40 feet behind him, the statement said.

Vang told investigators that's when he started firing at the group, according to the statement.

Five people died at the scene and a sixth died Monday in a hospital. Two others were wounded. The dead were identified as the landowner, Robert Crotteau, 42; his son Joey, 20; Al Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Jessica Willers, 27; and Denny Drew, 55, who died Monday at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield. Willers' father, Terry Willers, remained hospitalized Tuesday in fair condition, while the other wounded hunter was
released.

Officials said the victims were part of a group of 14 or 15 who made their opening-weekend trip to the 400-acre property an annual tradition.

"This was his first time out with that group. He was delighted to be invited," said Karen Roidt, mother of victim Mark Roidt.

According to an account Meier gave Monday, two or three hunters spotted a man in a hunting platform on Crotteau's land, then radioed back to the rest of the party at a nearby cabin and were told no one should be there. Meier did not indicate who the account came from.

One of the men asked the intruder to leave, while Crotteau and the others in the cabin hopped on their all-terrain vehicles and headed to the scene, according to the account.

Another aspect of this case that troubles me is the reaction from the Hmong community. Apparently fearing backlash, they have thrown Vang to the wolves. Compounding this sin is the media reporting on it as if what they think matters, and not putting it on context. I heard a radio report saying "Among the Hmong, there is little support for Vang. Most aren't buying his story of self-defense." Only because I read a pretty good newspaper article that went in depth into the cultural issues there and mentioned the fear of backlash, was I able to put the Hmong communities reaction in context. They have no more idea what happened in the woods that day than you or I - but they do have a reason to show the town that they are on the "Anglo's side."

Vang's arrest made some Hmong citizens in his hometown fearful of a backlash. Hmong leaders in St. Paul condemned the shootings Tuesday and offered
condolences to victims' families.

"What happened in Wisconsin is in no way representative of the Hmong people and what they stand for," said Cha Vang, who said he was representing "the greater law-abiding Hmong community." He is no relation to Chai Vang.

About 24,000 Hmong live in St. Paul, the highest concentration of any U.S. city.

The idea that they fired at shot in his direction as he was leaving is totally plausible in my experience - not to hit him, but some dumb stunt out of a Clint Eastwood movie (not anything Clint's character would do, but the toothless villains). As a trained ex-U.S. army soldier who earned the Marksman badge - I wouldn't be surprised that Vang took them all out so quick.

I want to know more about the time it took him to remove the scope from his rifle. That could be the linchpin in any self-defense argument when this comes to trial. We'll be hearing a lot more about that moment - the removal of the scope.

"The suspect got down from the deer stand, walked 40 yards, fiddled with his rifle. He took the scope off his rifle, he turned and he opened fire on the group," Meier said.

He was "chasing after them and killing them," Deputy Tim Zeigle said. "He hunted them down."

Authorities have said there was only one firearm among the eight hunters and it was unclear whether anyone returned fire.

Update: From today's Chicago Sun-Times via AP:

He said that he was told to get off the property, and as he started walking away, he turned back and saw Willers point a gun at him from about 100 feet away. He told investigators he immediately dropped to a crouch, and Willers shot at him, the bullet hitting the ground 30 to 40 feet behind Vang.

Vang said he removed the scope from his rifle and began firing, continuing to shoot as the group scattered. [Vang] said one of the victims, Joey Crotteau, tried to run away, but Vang chased him, got within 20 feet and shot him in the back. Crotteau, 20, was killed. Willers was wounded and was listed in fair condition Tuesday.

Vang said as he began to run, an ATV with two people drove past and he fired three or four times, causing both to fall off the machine. He said that he looked up the trail, saw that one of the men was standing, yelled, ''You're not dead yet?'' and fired one more shot in the man's direction. He said he did not know if he hit the man or not.
...
There have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region. Hunters have complained the Hmong do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they want. The tension once led to a fistfight in Minnesota, and a Hmong bow hunter in Wisconsin this fall reported having at least two white hunters point guns at him.

Vang has admitted shooting the 20 year-old in the back after chasing him down?! There goes any case of self-defense.